I'm not sure what the point of a confession without an apology or a mea culpa is. Except to make yourself feel better. You clearly see what you did was wrong, that this is a perfect example of rape culture, of the patriarchy, yet, even in the end, you disregard her version and make no apologies for pushing the issue over and over and over again. You apologized to her each time, but repeated the behavior - essentially saying what she says and wants doesn't matter. You disregard her wishes. I wonder if an amends was ever made. Date rape, even if nonviolent, is still rape.
There is every chance I'm mistaken, but it is my hunch this might be the only part of the story you've read. There is a lot more to it, including an apology. Here it is, as best we could remember it:
“I’m sorry, Joy. I can’t believe it happened that way.” My throat began to ache. “I never would have dreamed I’d do something like that. But I did. I don’t know what happened. I’m sorry. I’m so, so sorry. I don’t even feel like I have the right to ask for forgiveness.”
You can find it in a post titled, "Confessing Sexual Assault: Confronting My Darkest Truth
The story. The apology. Her response." I also use the word rape to describe what I did. It's what it was.
I'm not sure how to tell this story, to be honest. I could tell it quickly, just be done with it. Kind of a, "I did this. I was supposed to be a nice guy. Be careful out there." But to a certain extent that feels like an easy way out. In addition, one of the reasons we tell the story is in hopes that it might prevent the same thing happening to others. We could say, "there were lots of red flags." Or, we could provide details about what the red flags looked like. I think that's what we're trying to do- show what happened with us. I think we're going to continue to tell this slowly.
Having said that, I'll keep your comment in mind. It's important. In two weeks we'll be addressing how patriarchy protected me. Joy will be telling that part.
Well, I read back to Aug 5. I see you married the girl you raped. I also see that she wound up taking care of you and your feelings as you dealt with your wounded little boy feelings while apologizing for what you did. Sorry, no matter how you frame it, it's gaslighting, it's shirking your responsibility, it's making the victim carry the blame. What you did was plain selfish and self-centered. No matter what happened to you in your life, you're still responsible for your actions. Not every molested child becomes a perpetrator. An apology, a real amends, gives the person harmed space for their feelings, not the responsibility of caring for yours.
Jodi- You might note there was some time between my "liking" this comment, and the response I'm leaving now. When I read what you had to say after further reading, I jumped to a state of defensiveness. I've learned that when I respond from a defensive state of mind, I'm at my worst. It gets in the way of listening. You took time to read my previous response. You heard it, and you considered the "more to the story." Thank you for that.
In the few short hours since your response (which to me, seemed like days), I've come to understand you are correct.
First, of course not every child that was molested becomes a perpetrator. I'm not even completely comfortable calling my childhood experiences molestation, which is more to your point.
It's the gaslighting part that really hit me hard. "...it's gaslighting, it's shirking your responsibility, it's making the victim carry the blame." I didn't want to see that as true.
But it occurred to me that it is likely you have vastly more knowledge about what gaslighting is than I do. So I sat with it. And I walked with it. And I shared your words with a friend who has more knowledge and experience with gaslighting than I ever might. This was their response:
"Abusers often will sob intense tears to gain sympathy of their victim, usually not out of real pain but to manipulate them."
I re-read the story I posted. The person I want to be spoke up: "It's there. You know it's there. Remember that nagging thought you had when you wrote this story? The part where it felt kind of cringe-y or off? This is why. Your tears were real. Perhaps even genuine. There was real pain for you, I suppose. But you were having the conversation to convince your victim to stay with you. This is manipulation. Jodi is right."
You saw it for what it was.
Thank you for calling me on it. I'll work at it.
If you saw it, I'm sure there were others that noticed it too. To ask them to brush on by it would even fit MY understanding of gaslighting, which by the way, was clearly limited.
So, thanks for speaking up. I'm sorry you had to.
In the immediate, I'm going back to story to add a footnote noting the manipulative behavior. In the long term, I'll likely re-write the entire thing.
I don't agree that it was manipulation. Manipulation implies deceit. Your tears were genuine, and you were upfront that you wanted her to stay with you and asking her to, so no deceit.
Please watch out for all the people who will just insult you and not give you the benefit of the doubt. They are just pushing their agenda.
Why do you not consider your childhood abuse molestation?
Thanks for the response. Heard. I'll read that post. I read this one, and the one that preceded it. I'll go back to Aug 5 and start from the beginning.
I found this series through your comment on another post. I’m not sure I’ve read anything so straightforward from this perspective before. I hope this reaches a lot of men with whom it might resonate.
Thank you, Ruby. I hope it reaches people too. And the people it reaches... I hope they're touched by it, or moved towards growth and health.
So you know, I have a small audience. It will best reach other people if you share it wherever you might share things you appreciate. It's hard to write a story like this. It's more difficult to ask people to "like" it in a way that the algorithm will appreciate. Your sharing support helps.
Over the years as I began to feel comfortable sharing this experience with other people I was often met with the same response you gave here. So, you're not alone. I've receive the response from people of various backgrounds too, so it's clear that an understanding of just what sexual assault is can be open to interpretation. There are two ways to look at it which I believe come together in agreement in the end.
Let's begin with a legal understanding:
I once told this story to a friend of mine who is a police officer. Initially their response was similar to yours and expressed a bit of doubt as to whether an assault occurred. Then I wrote the story down for them, detailing the events that night. You might consider what I wrote to be a rough-draft for what you read here. After reading it, this officer had a different comment for me. They simply shook their head and told me I was "lucky," before immediately regretting their use of the word "luck." They continued, "If Joy had reported this experience to the police and this was the statement you provided when we interviewed you, we would have arrested you. Your life would have been much different than the life you lived. That's what I meant by 'lucky.'"
Ultimately, the moment I did what I did, I made someone a victim and "luck" was no longer a word I got to use about that story.
I knew what he meant, and I knew he was right. Consent matters. A full, positive affirmation that a sexual partner wants to be engaged in sexual activity provides what is necessary for consent. I was not given full, positive affirmation that evening.
I first addressed this topic in a different article titled "Dearest Gentle Reader, I Did a Terrible Thing." I did not use the word "rape" in that article, and a reader called me on it. This reader was a victim advocacy lawyer. They told me in no uncertain terms that I was a rapist. I was going to point you to the comment, but it's since been deleted.
So, while some may not understand how it was sexual assault, those who address it on a regular basis, saw it for what it was. I victimized somebody I cared about.
Let's talk about an ethical understanding:
Forget the law... people get away with things all the time - from a legal perspective. It is unethical to use somebody for sexual fulfillment, whether you "meant to" or not. This is pretty easy to understand. Only have sex with somebody who wants to have sex with you. Be sure of it. It's the right thing to do, and the right kind of person to be.
JC- What happened that night is my greatest regret in life. Fortunately, I was able to tell my victim I was sorry, and spend my life proving my apology was sincere. But if I could go back to the 19-year-old kid the day before he did what he did, I'd make sure he understood what consent was. I didn't have the tools, emotional understanding or maturity I needed, and what happened happened.
It is our hope that sharing our story will help others avoid similar experiences.
I don't think they would have actually arrested you, especially not 20 years ago. Did he say why he thought they would have arrested you?
And why didn't he arrest you at the time?
Also, if Joy had reported it, hopefully you wouldn't have given the cops a statement!
I do think she indicated consent, in the car, being sexual with you, opening her legs, allowing you to enter her, not stopping you, saying no, or pushing you off. And there was no force used, for states that use the force definition of rape rather than the consent one (every state is a little different).
It's impossible to create an honest hypothetical situation about how it would have been handled then, closer to 30 years now. I imagine the officer's response to me was how it would be handled today, not then.
I wouldn't have been as honest then as I am being today. I imagine I'd have done my best to insist I'd had consent. Likely I would have been believed, particularly with the way things were handled almost 30 years ago.
They couldn't arrest me for several reasons today. First, the statute of limitations. Second, there's nobody pressing charges. Third, jurisdiction.
We can't act on "indicated" consent. Particularly for a first sexual experience with someone.
Sure we can - consent has to be indicated somehow, whether verbally or nonverbally.
That's what makes rape cases so difficult. They turn not on consent, but on the expression of consent, and the question for the jury is whether a reasonable person would think, under the totality of the circumstances, that there was consent.
I think that would be a hard case to prosecute, 30 years ago or today.
I hope you would not be honest with the cops, then or now. Honesty is not a virtue in dealing with cops.
I'm not sure what the point of a confession without an apology or a mea culpa is. Except to make yourself feel better. You clearly see what you did was wrong, that this is a perfect example of rape culture, of the patriarchy, yet, even in the end, you disregard her version and make no apologies for pushing the issue over and over and over again. You apologized to her each time, but repeated the behavior - essentially saying what she says and wants doesn't matter. You disregard her wishes. I wonder if an amends was ever made. Date rape, even if nonviolent, is still rape.
Hi, Jodi.
There is every chance I'm mistaken, but it is my hunch this might be the only part of the story you've read. There is a lot more to it, including an apology. Here it is, as best we could remember it:
“I’m sorry, Joy. I can’t believe it happened that way.” My throat began to ache. “I never would have dreamed I’d do something like that. But I did. I don’t know what happened. I’m sorry. I’m so, so sorry. I don’t even feel like I have the right to ask for forgiveness.”
You can find it in a post titled, "Confessing Sexual Assault: Confronting My Darkest Truth
The story. The apology. Her response." I also use the word rape to describe what I did. It's what it was.
I'm not sure how to tell this story, to be honest. I could tell it quickly, just be done with it. Kind of a, "I did this. I was supposed to be a nice guy. Be careful out there." But to a certain extent that feels like an easy way out. In addition, one of the reasons we tell the story is in hopes that it might prevent the same thing happening to others. We could say, "there were lots of red flags." Or, we could provide details about what the red flags looked like. I think that's what we're trying to do- show what happened with us. I think we're going to continue to tell this slowly.
Having said that, I'll keep your comment in mind. It's important. In two weeks we'll be addressing how patriarchy protected me. Joy will be telling that part.
Well, I read back to Aug 5. I see you married the girl you raped. I also see that she wound up taking care of you and your feelings as you dealt with your wounded little boy feelings while apologizing for what you did. Sorry, no matter how you frame it, it's gaslighting, it's shirking your responsibility, it's making the victim carry the blame. What you did was plain selfish and self-centered. No matter what happened to you in your life, you're still responsible for your actions. Not every molested child becomes a perpetrator. An apology, a real amends, gives the person harmed space for their feelings, not the responsibility of caring for yours.
Jodi- You might note there was some time between my "liking" this comment, and the response I'm leaving now. When I read what you had to say after further reading, I jumped to a state of defensiveness. I've learned that when I respond from a defensive state of mind, I'm at my worst. It gets in the way of listening. You took time to read my previous response. You heard it, and you considered the "more to the story." Thank you for that.
In the few short hours since your response (which to me, seemed like days), I've come to understand you are correct.
First, of course not every child that was molested becomes a perpetrator. I'm not even completely comfortable calling my childhood experiences molestation, which is more to your point.
It's the gaslighting part that really hit me hard. "...it's gaslighting, it's shirking your responsibility, it's making the victim carry the blame." I didn't want to see that as true.
But it occurred to me that it is likely you have vastly more knowledge about what gaslighting is than I do. So I sat with it. And I walked with it. And I shared your words with a friend who has more knowledge and experience with gaslighting than I ever might. This was their response:
"Abusers often will sob intense tears to gain sympathy of their victim, usually not out of real pain but to manipulate them."
I re-read the story I posted. The person I want to be spoke up: "It's there. You know it's there. Remember that nagging thought you had when you wrote this story? The part where it felt kind of cringe-y or off? This is why. Your tears were real. Perhaps even genuine. There was real pain for you, I suppose. But you were having the conversation to convince your victim to stay with you. This is manipulation. Jodi is right."
You saw it for what it was.
Thank you for calling me on it. I'll work at it.
If you saw it, I'm sure there were others that noticed it too. To ask them to brush on by it would even fit MY understanding of gaslighting, which by the way, was clearly limited.
So, thanks for speaking up. I'm sorry you had to.
In the immediate, I'm going back to story to add a footnote noting the manipulative behavior. In the long term, I'll likely re-write the entire thing.
I've work yet to do.
I don't agree that it was manipulation. Manipulation implies deceit. Your tears were genuine, and you were upfront that you wanted her to stay with you and asking her to, so no deceit.
Please watch out for all the people who will just insult you and not give you the benefit of the doubt. They are just pushing their agenda.
Why do you not consider your childhood abuse molestation?
Thanks for the response. Heard. I'll read that post. I read this one, and the one that preceded it. I'll go back to Aug 5 and start from the beginning.
I found this series through your comment on another post. I’m not sure I’ve read anything so straightforward from this perspective before. I hope this reaches a lot of men with whom it might resonate.
Thank you, Ruby. I hope it reaches people too. And the people it reaches... I hope they're touched by it, or moved towards growth and health.
So you know, I have a small audience. It will best reach other people if you share it wherever you might share things you appreciate. It's hard to write a story like this. It's more difficult to ask people to "like" it in a way that the algorithm will appreciate. Your sharing support helps.
I don't see how this was sexual assault...
JC,
Over the years as I began to feel comfortable sharing this experience with other people I was often met with the same response you gave here. So, you're not alone. I've receive the response from people of various backgrounds too, so it's clear that an understanding of just what sexual assault is can be open to interpretation. There are two ways to look at it which I believe come together in agreement in the end.
Let's begin with a legal understanding:
I once told this story to a friend of mine who is a police officer. Initially their response was similar to yours and expressed a bit of doubt as to whether an assault occurred. Then I wrote the story down for them, detailing the events that night. You might consider what I wrote to be a rough-draft for what you read here. After reading it, this officer had a different comment for me. They simply shook their head and told me I was "lucky," before immediately regretting their use of the word "luck." They continued, "If Joy had reported this experience to the police and this was the statement you provided when we interviewed you, we would have arrested you. Your life would have been much different than the life you lived. That's what I meant by 'lucky.'"
Ultimately, the moment I did what I did, I made someone a victim and "luck" was no longer a word I got to use about that story.
I knew what he meant, and I knew he was right. Consent matters. A full, positive affirmation that a sexual partner wants to be engaged in sexual activity provides what is necessary for consent. I was not given full, positive affirmation that evening.
I first addressed this topic in a different article titled "Dearest Gentle Reader, I Did a Terrible Thing." I did not use the word "rape" in that article, and a reader called me on it. This reader was a victim advocacy lawyer. They told me in no uncertain terms that I was a rapist. I was going to point you to the comment, but it's since been deleted.
So, while some may not understand how it was sexual assault, those who address it on a regular basis, saw it for what it was. I victimized somebody I cared about.
Let's talk about an ethical understanding:
Forget the law... people get away with things all the time - from a legal perspective. It is unethical to use somebody for sexual fulfillment, whether you "meant to" or not. This is pretty easy to understand. Only have sex with somebody who wants to have sex with you. Be sure of it. It's the right thing to do, and the right kind of person to be.
JC- What happened that night is my greatest regret in life. Fortunately, I was able to tell my victim I was sorry, and spend my life proving my apology was sincere. But if I could go back to the 19-year-old kid the day before he did what he did, I'd make sure he understood what consent was. I didn't have the tools, emotional understanding or maturity I needed, and what happened happened.
It is our hope that sharing our story will help others avoid similar experiences.
Thanks for speaking up.
I don't think they would have actually arrested you, especially not 20 years ago. Did he say why he thought they would have arrested you?
And why didn't he arrest you at the time?
Also, if Joy had reported it, hopefully you wouldn't have given the cops a statement!
I do think she indicated consent, in the car, being sexual with you, opening her legs, allowing you to enter her, not stopping you, saying no, or pushing you off. And there was no force used, for states that use the force definition of rape rather than the consent one (every state is a little different).
It's impossible to create an honest hypothetical situation about how it would have been handled then, closer to 30 years now. I imagine the officer's response to me was how it would be handled today, not then.
I wouldn't have been as honest then as I am being today. I imagine I'd have done my best to insist I'd had consent. Likely I would have been believed, particularly with the way things were handled almost 30 years ago.
They couldn't arrest me for several reasons today. First, the statute of limitations. Second, there's nobody pressing charges. Third, jurisdiction.
We can't act on "indicated" consent. Particularly for a first sexual experience with someone.
Sure we can - consent has to be indicated somehow, whether verbally or nonverbally.
That's what makes rape cases so difficult. They turn not on consent, but on the expression of consent, and the question for the jury is whether a reasonable person would think, under the totality of the circumstances, that there was consent.
I think that would be a hard case to prosecute, 30 years ago or today.
I hope you would not be honest with the cops, then or now. Honesty is not a virtue in dealing with cops.