Talking to Girls About Modesty
That is, Let's Start with the Boys.
I’ve been sitting on this post for a few weeks. It was ready to go. I was ready to “press publish.” I sent it to two different editors, and they delayed it. The first said, “This isn’t ready. It needs more work.” They were right. So I did some more work.
Then I sent it to a different person. They read it and said, “I disagree with your overall point.”
That one hit a little harder.
Was I wrong? I was pretty sure about my position. I couldn’t understand how they could possibly see things differently than I do.
In this case, “they” was my wife, Joy. I generally give strong consideration to anything she has to say. There was a time in our relationship when I would have pushed back pretty hard. I would have argued my point, wondering why she didn’t understand. I’d take it even further, and wonder why she didn’t understand me.
But those days are in the past. These days, I listen. I consider maybe I’m wrong.
So I let it sit for a couple weeks longer. But part of what’s great about my wife is she doesn’t push back much. She’ll explain her position, and then explain it in a way that I can understand.
Joy eventually looked at me and said, “Hey, maybe we just have to agree to disagree on this one. That’s ok too.”
Perhaps. But her willingness to allow for my position to be valid, even juxtaposed against hers which was different, really made me think further about the topic at hand.
I think my position is valid. Also, so is hers. As it turns out, there can be more than one way of viewing things, and they can exist at the same time, in peace.
Anyways, on to the topic at hand.
I've noticed a post on my Facebook newsfeed recently that illustrates how people with good intentions can sometimes inadvertently exacerbate situations due to a lack of forethought.
The post is a picture of two young women who look to be in their early to mid-teens. “Scantily clad” is a fair description of their outfits, particularly for one of them. She’s wearing very, very little.
Accompanying the picture is a story. The story is as follows:
A girl bought an iPad. When her father saw it, He asked her "What was the 1st thing you did when you bought it?
"I put an anti-scratch sticker on the screen and bought a cover for the iPad" she replied.
"Did someone force you to do so?"
"No"
"Don't you think it's an insult to the
manufacturer?""No dad! In fact they even recommend using a cover for the iPad"
"Did you cover it because it was cheap & ugly?"
"Actually, I covered it because I didn't want it to get damaged and decrease in value."
"When you put the cover on, didn't it reduce the iPad's beauty?"
"I think it looks better and it is worth it for the protection it gives my iPad."
The father looked lovingly at his daughter and said, "Yet if I had asked you to cover your body which is much more precious than the iPad, would you have readily agreed???"
She was mute.....
~ Indecent dressing and exposure of your body reduces your value and respect.
Always dress decently.
*Pls protect our young ladies by sharing this with all sisters*.1
In her book, Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free, Linda Kay Klein discusses how women were viewed during the purity movement. She interviews other women about their experiences with the evangelical church culture, especially regarding sexuality. One of her interviewees, who she calls “Jo,” stated it succinctly:
“…women are taught their bodies are evil; men are taught their minds are” (Klein, 2018, pg 235).2
Klein’s book came to mind as I read the Facebook post. While the it appears to be an attempt to teach girls their bodies are special, in the end it exacerbates the two problems Jo’s quote brings to light.3
We must change the messaging we’re giving young people. And to be honest, we adults need to adjust our perspectives too.
It's quite disheartening that a father would equate the worth of his daughter to that of an iPad.
I had my 17-year-old daughter read the post. Her thoughts were telling-
“Wait … they’re comparing me to an iPad?”
Then…
“Wait, are they saying if something happens to me sexually that I’d somehow be worth less than I was before?”
…and then, after reading it again…
“…and that what I wear makes it my fault? … Yeah, no. That’s dumb. It’s degrading.”
She’s right. She’s not an iPad. My daughter, and your daughter, and everyone else’s daughters are human. We put protective covers on iPads to protect their value and hopefully prevent damage to them. For sure, if an iPad is damaged, it decreases in value.
This is not how we should understand the value of a human.
Let’s just say someone’s daughter is sexually assaulted one day. It doesn’t matter if she was walking through a college fraternity party in the nude or if she was clothed like she was hiking to the north pole, if she was sexually assaulted by a somebody are we to believe her value is then decreased like an iPad dropped in the driveway, cracking its screen?
Is that the message we want our women to have? That they’re damaged goods after an unwanted sexual encounter? That somehow their value is lessened? Forget the “unwanted” sexual encounter. Are we to believe a woman’s value in 2023 is still based upon whether or not she’s had sex before?
They have confused protecting a woman’s value for protecting her physical safety.
As I read the post, the last line is a call to action to share the post in an effort to “protect our young ladies.” I can get on board with protecting young ladies. But this message is A) off-target and, B) aimed at the wrong target to begin with.
The responsibility for protecting woman’s body (or sexuality) is misdirected.
I have a teenage daughter. You might ask if I’d allow her to go out dressed like the girls in the picture. Frankly, in our household the question is moot.
First, we have made it clear that how she dresses is up to her. She may go to school dressed however she wants to. It does help that her school has uniform requirements.
Still, even outside school administrative expectations, she has yet to leave our home dressed in a way which her mother and I find concerning. But it’s not because of any particular belief that she has to dress modestly. It’s not because we’ve put the fear of God (literally) into her about being modest and to be … how did the post put it? Oh, yes, decently dressed. Decently … modestly … appropriately … you choose the word. It doesn’t matter. They all put the onus for a boy’s sexual behavior on the girl and what she is wearing.
We began the “how you should dress” conversation differently.
What I told my daughter is that most men are idiots.
I (a man) told her most men are idiots with my wife there next to me, nodding like a bobblehead doll in an earthquake. I took no offense at her agreement, though I did touch her gently on the top of her head with my finger in hopes to stop the motion.
I explained to my daughter my “men are idiots” statement is especially true in young men due to the copious amounts of hormones pumping through them during puberty. I explained to her that most of the young men she is around are already trying to undress girls with their eyes, including her.
When she looked at me with disgust, I told her not to take it personally, because they’d be interested in at least thinking about having sex with most of the women around them.
Because again, … hormones.
Then I explained that the more of her skin they see, the harder the hormones pump. The result is that it is more difficult for them to keep her more important, intrinsic values at the forefront of their thoughts. I even told her it wasn’t the boys’ fault their minds worked this way. It’s biology.
BUT …
I also explained that boys aren’t usually taught how their brains work when it comes to hormones. So, it’s probably a best practice to wear clothes that cover up. It might help prevent unwanted attention and activity.
Uneducated, hormone-driven boys do dumb stuff. Sometimes even the educated boys do dumb stuff.
As far as her value as a woman? My wife and I both made it clear that she is a person of limitless value, and nothing that anybody ever did to her could reduce her value as a person.
Then I made her look at me in the eyes and made sure she heard and understood me.
“The status of your sexuality… whether you have had sex or not, by choice or not… has nothing to do with your value as a person.”
Her mother and I rammed this point home until the conversation was awkward.
The fact is, we need to hold our sons to a higher standard when it comes to how they view woman - covered skin or otherwise.
The purity culture was abhorrent in the messages it gave to young woman about their value in relation to their sexual status. Virgins were considered pure, while girls who had sex were compared - I kid you not - they were compared to already chewed bubble gum and Oreos with the cream filling already licked out. I mean nobody wants those things, right4?
Again the quote from Klein’s book reads, “…women are taught their bodies are evil; men are taught their minds are.”
The quote was a bulls-eye to my experience and I decided my kids would receive different messages.
I’ve already shared with you how we discussed the subject with my daughter. But, what about sons? How might a person address this subject with their son?
Storytime!
Jack was in the car with his son, Seth. He’d just picked him up from high school on a dreary day midway through Seth’s freshman year. Jack enjoyed picking him up from school, likely quite more than Seth was going to enjoy the stop at Harbor Freight on the way home. These were the things of daily routine, both the ride from school as well as running a few errands on the trip home.
Seth’s behavior during the ride was exactly what you might expect. He had a good relationship with his dad and would often talk his father’s ear off. If he didn’t have anything to talk about he’d likely listen to music, or perhaps watch something on his phone. The thing about routines, the aspect that makes them nice is that you know what to expect. And when the routine is off, we can know something is amiss. On the ride in question, something was different. Seth was quiet, just staring out the passenger window into the distance. Something wasn’t right.
“Hey, Seth? You ok?” he asked.
“Yeah.” Seth lied in the way most of us do when we need prompting to let out what we’re really feeling.
Jack prodded. “You sure? You’re really quiet.”
“Yeah, just thinking.”
That much was obvious. Jack grew concerned because it seemed that whatever Seth was thinking about was bothering him.
“Ok. Well, let me know if you want to talk.” Jack encouraged, taking care to avoid being the overly-interested father.
They rode on in silence for a bit more. Thinking better of it at the moment, Jack drove past Harbor Freight. As he watched the store sign go by the car, he glanced at Seth who was ruminating. Jack thought he saw a sheen in his eyes indicative of coming tears.
“Hey, bud, what’s going on. I can tell something’s really bothering you.”
He just shook his head.
Then, finally, “It’s about a girl at school.” He muttered.
“Oh.” Jack replied, hoping for more information. His concern waning a bit, believing the issue might not be anything more than normal teenage angst, he let the silence linger, hoping the pregnant pause would give birth to more information.
“I can’t stop thinking about her.” He said it as he continued looking out the window. By this time it was clear he wasn’t so much looking out the window as he was trying not to make eye contact.
For the next few minutes of the ride home Jack remained silent, wondering why just thinking about a girl at school would make Seth cry. Jack began to walk through the cognitive dissonance as to whether he should press for Seth to talk, or just let things go.
Seth would talk when he wanted to talk, right?
No. He might not.
Resolute, Jack nudged him some more.
“Is it someone you like?”
“Yeah. Well, no. Sorta …”
“Well, that’s … ok. Why is it upsetting you so much?” Jack was confused. Liking a girl shouldn’t cause tears. Especially if it was just sorta liking her.
Seth finally caved.
“I can’t stop thinking about what it would be like to have sex with her. I barely even know her! And I said sorta because I don’t even know if I like her. I just… I don’t know what I mean.”
Then, in what one might only defend as an act they intended to lighten the atmosphere, Jack about choked on his coffee and burst into laughter.
That’s right, laughter. The full-on guttural response of hilarity was an unfortunate spontaneous reaction that didn’t go over well.
Seth’s tearful waterworks burst forth.
“Why are you laughing?!” He asked, exasperated. “It’s not funny!”
Jack tried to backpedal and touched Seth on the shoulder. “No! No! No! I’m sorry! I’m not laughing at you! I promise! I’m actually really glad you told me.” He paused for a moment as he pulled the car into their driveway. Putting the car in park, he turned and looked at his son.
“I can’t tell you how proud I am that you’d tell me this. I know it wasn’t easy, and maybe you feel embarrassed or ashamed or something. I’m sorry I laughed. I shouldn’t have. But I wasn’t laughing at you, even though that’s how I’m sure it felt."
“Listen…” Jack paused for a moment, doing his best to make sure the words he used would help.
“I laughed because the things you’re experiencing are completely normal. I laughed because I was expecting to hear something … else. Just not that. The fact that you shared this with me is incredible! It tells me a lot about our relationship. It means a lot to me. Part of my laughter was joy. I know it might sound weird. But… when you said it I remembered having similar problems when I was in school!”
Seth wiped the tears away.
“I’m sorry I laughed. But again...wait, please look at me.” He turned and looked, eyes and cheeks red, eyelashes sticking together and curled pointing up.
“Your supposed to want to have sex with girls. It’s how our bodies work. It’s how our brains work. It’s hormones, dude. You’re experiencing hormones. The hormones are in our body to make us want to procreate. To get a woman pregnant. That’s the biological, scientific function of hormones. I know it’s kind of bland and dumb sounding, but them’s the facts o’ life, brother’.”
He nodded again.
“But, why are you so upset about it?”
“I just know it’s wrong.”
As he answered, Jack thought back to his own teenage years and the messages he received about his sex drive. He didn’t think anyone had prepared him well for sexuality, particularly not his church. Not that they didn’t try. But it was always framed from a sin/not sin perspective. His desire to have sex was always framed as sinful and it always would be until he was married. He was told it was Satan tempting him. All he was ever taught was the importance of “resisting the devil.”
Jack looked at his son again.
“Here’s what you need to remember, Seth. Here’s the crux of the battle for you, well, for us really. Here’s what I wish people had told me about my sex drive…”
He looked back at his father, unprompted this time, looking directly into his eyes.
“Wanting to have sex with a person is different than liking someone. When your desire to have sex with a girl outweighs your desire to value them as a fellow human being, that is when it becomes a problem.”
Seth looked at his father, blinking. Jack continued, trying to find a better way to illustrate his point.
“Hey, you remember that part in the creation story where God says something like, “Let us make man in our own image?”
“Yeah.”
“Did you ever wonder who God was talking to? Who ‘us’ was? I mean, he hadn’t created man yet, so who was God talking to?”
Seth looked perplexed. Jack saw his reaction and was unsure if the confusion was because Seth hadn’t thought about it before or if he was confused as to what any of this had to do with the issue at hand. “Um… no, I haven’t really thought about that.” After a pause he asked, “So, who was he talking to?”
“I have no idea. But here’s how I think about it: maybe God was talking to the animals. Maybe God was saying to the animals, ‘Let’s make them part animal and part divine.’ Maybe that’s why our hormones are so strong and make us want to have sex.” I mean, it makes sense, doesn’t it? At least I know it helps me understand my own sex drive56.”
Seth grimaced and held up a hand. “Dad. Please…”
“Sorry, man. I know you don’t want to hear about my sex drive, but I’m a dude too.”
Seth gave a reluctant smile. “I know, it’s just not something I want to hear about.”
Jack continued. “That helps me remember that sex has a place in our lives, but so does our divine nature. The divine nature is an important part of what sets us apart from animals. It’s what makes us special, and when we forget the person we’re looking at is also divine, that’s when we mess things up.”
Then, because he can’t resist a good pun when it falls into his lap… “So, remember, you’re not a dog … dawg.”
Seth rolled his eyes. “Dad, that pun was worse than your little reminder that you have a sex drive.”
Jack laughed. So did Seth, the tension seeming to leave the conversation.
“Hey listen, one more thing and then I’ll let you get out of the car.” He said looking straight at him, hopefully into his soul. “I love you. I’m glad you have the insight and desire to treat women well. Just remember, your desire to have sex with women isn’t sinful. If there’s anything sinful about the sex drive, it’s when we allow the drive to have sex overcome our desire and responsibility to think of and value them as human. Got it?”
He nodded. “Yeah, thanks.”
Further thoughts.
The point my wife wanted me to understand about how she read the original Facebook post is that women should value their bodies. And that they should show they understand the value by covering them. At least, I think that’s what she was saying.
She also explained to me that she’s seen women use their bodies as tools to get what they want from men. She pressed me about the importance that men understand this happens too. She’s right. It does happen, and I agree with her. It’s a hormonal response men should be aware of.
Scientists might point out that females, be it humans or some other animal, will also seek sexual activity. To do so, they’ll flaunt what they have, and try to make what they have to offer the opposite sex look appealing. There are times when it’s appropriate. The challenge is to understand when it is and when it isn’t. But, it is my opinion that we have placed the responsibility for how this plays out in humans on women far too often.
It’s time for that to change.
It would be nice to be able to wrap up the story about Jack and Seth with, “And everybody lived happily ever after. The end.” For all we know Jack and Seth might live happily ever after. But I think most people would agree that’s not how life works. There’s far more nuance than we can possibly address here today.
Suffice to say, I believe we’ve all failed in how we handle sexuality in our world. Essentially, the church’s advice to us was “don’t do it until you’re married.” My public school’s education basically boiled down to, “Wear a condom so you don’t get AIDS or get the girl pregnant.” These days the message is “Practice safe sex and make sure she says, ‘yes.’” It’s an important improvement, but only slightly so, if you ask me. Both the church and the secular world would do much better to respect hormones, the effect they have on us, and teach our youth that we can both understand and keep them under control. Then we can start to teach our your about the beauty of true intimacy between people.
Sex is a part of intimacy sometimes, but it isn’t intimacy in and of itself.
Further, I grew up with an unspoken understanding that while men wanted sex, women, for the most part, endured it. It was as if it was some sort of chore to be done to keep a husband happy and have children.
This is false. Women do want, enjoy, and seek sexual activity.
They shouldn’t be shamed for it. But they should be educated about it beyond the clothes they wear.
So, go talk to your kids. Explain to them how hormones work.
And please, don’t rely on a 191-word terribly written and misdirected Facebook post. This is far more important than that.
I will not share the picture of the girls. Not because it’s inappropriate, but because nobody has the right to share a picture of two young, scantily clad, teenage girls to make a point about anything. They’re real, actual people.
This story feels bogus to begin with.
Are we supposed to believe a father out there saw that his daughter bought an iPad with a protective cover and thought it was a good opportunity to provide a life-lesson on modesty? I’ve been an evangelical Christian for almost 5 decades now and know how to spot a contrived illustration when I see one. This strikes me as one of those.
I’ve been pretty blunt in how I’ve taken my own church denomination to task for certain doctrine and theology. But in this instance, I have no recollection of my local church leadership comparing girls to chewing gum or Oreos. In fact, I think the youth leaders I had would have been more likely to laugh at it as a preposterous suggestion. I was surrounded by some pretty good people.
Klein mentions these comparisons in her book, and I’ve had conversations with others women who recall the same illustrations when they were teenagers. While it’s not something I heard first-hand, it’s also not something I made up.
If we look at how the ancients (which is what the authors of Genesis are) viewed deities, it would have made sense that God may have been talking to a heavenly council of Gods … or something like that. Think “Zeus and the others.” My Christian upbringing sometimes claimed God was talking to Jesus. If so, it must have been a super-confusing portion of Hebrew scripture for a millennia or two.
I didn’t come up with this on my own when writing this story. I read it in an ancient, Jewish commentary. It’s from the midrash.
This is an important post. Thanks for how you deal with it.
It's been helpful for me to note that the Christian scriptures don't call people to virginity. Ever. But that doesn't leave us without sexual ethics. Rather, the scriptures call us to understandings of chastity - that there are boundaries that support both the health of the individual and the greater community. These actually reinforce some of the ideas that do help strengthen Christian sexual ethics as we live in a not-yet-fully-Kingdomed-world, including consent and monogamy.